I am really disappointed in Gary Roberts at the moment. He probably has some sense of justification for what he does, I'm not really looking to pick a fight. But I feel the need to - and have the right to - express my disappointment.
I pick up a copy of Hustler Taboo every month, and half of the reason why I pay for it is to get a glimpse of Gary Roberts' upcoming comics. It's also cheaper than paying for roberts-comics.com, which asks for $33.87 a month for only Roberts' comics, which - although I am a fan - I feel like is quite a steep price.
So imagine my disappointment when I skip quickly to the back of the magazine and see that the drawings are traced. There are four pages of Roberts' new "Indefinite Detention."
1st page: Top right panel is traced from Black Van 3.
Bottom right panel bothers me. I think the girl in this one is traced, but am not certain. Mentioned for completeness, but no comment.
2nd page: Top right and Bottom right panels traced from Black Van 3.
I've actually known for sometime that Roberts has taken shortcuts before like in Witch Hunt where he basically used the same panel twice, but this much tracing in two pages is quite a lot...
There's a lot of people who dislike Roberts' art because they feel like all the girls look the same, and I usually defend Roberts by saying that this is the kind of girl that he and his fans find really sexy, and that there's nothing wrong with that. What I feel is not okay is that the girls look the same BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME.
Seriously, people pay for this work; I paid indirectly for this work. I know that your output has diminished lately, but have you just given up trying? It makes me sad.
Does it matter if one fan is sad? Maybe not. That's why I'm not going to say something like "I'll never buy your work again!" or anything because it's not like it would matter, and I still think your art is fantastic.
But I don't think this is a good strategy for having people respect your work. And when they don't respect your work, they pirate it.
Why buy Dungeon Next Door? It's just his free work plus a few extra pages... [although to be fair, you do say you focus more on roberts-comics.com than dofantasy]
Why buy Indefinite Detention? He just traces the models from his previous works...
Please reconsider, Roberts.
Edit: And yes, I know, it's porn, it's not exactly high class or high stakes artwork where people complain about tracing. Adult games are notorious for tracing. Still, even they don't tend to retrace their previous works. It's fresh because the viewers don't know where it's from. Anyone who is willing to pay for your work is a fan of your work, so I'd think I'm not the only one who would notice the tracing quickly, or at least find the drawings strangely familiar...
Edit2: And just in case anyone might think I am saying that piracy is justified in any case, I'm not making that argument. I'm just asking that Roberts reconsider, hopefully sympathizing with my disappointment, as well as looking at it from - what I believe to be - a practical standpoint.
Roberts: Tracing
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ROBERTS
- Member
- Posts: 730
Re: Roberts: Tracing
Well isn't this an interesting criticism...after 14 years.
If you want me to respond to specific drawings, you'll have to post images...the Hustler Taboo comics come out usually 3 to 4 months AFTER the same pages post on Roberts-Comics..the website is where the work appears first, usually right after it's completed. It appears in Taboo months later, so I have no idea what page you're talking about. Please post examples.
As for using line drawings I have on file for other comics, yes I do. There's a filing cabinet sitting here with every girl I've ever drawn going back into the 1980's, thousands of them. If I'm constructing a page and there's a girl in a pose I know I have on file that fits what I need, it's simply silly to sit and sketch out a whole new model in that same position. In the "Indefinite Detention" comic, I have actually drawn more new figure models and line drawings than any other comic other than "DragonSabre".."Indefinite Detention" has more new original drawings that any other, so I find it interesting you pick THIS one to criticize. The original art file on that comic just passed the 300 image mark yesterday, although that was a helicopter.. Maybe you work for the people I am criticizing in this comic? You seem unusually annoyed over such a small thing.
As for the price on the Roberts-Comics website, I have no control of it. Because of Government threats to the Banks, I cannot get my own billing for my own website..I am a "terrorist". So in order to even HAVE a pay website, I must partner with someone who HAS a billing system. The billing system belongs to DoFantasy and DoBill, not me. I do not set the prices on ANY product on DoFantasy, it is their company. Not mine. My next website is going to be $9.95, but I need a billing company first!
Would you be as angry at Hajime Sorayama if you found out every one of his amazing illustrations of nude girls or space girls or chrome robot girls was traced from a porno magazine centerfold girl? Because they are. Some of his signed prints are going for $5000 now.
Would you be mad if I told you all of those great sexy Luis Royo girls on all those Heavy Metal covers were traced? Of course they are. So are Boris Vallejo's oil paintings, though he does photograph his models himself.
See, my origins come from the world of Commercial Art..professional commercial art. Advertising, magazines, printed books..I've worked for Disney and Universal, for custom car designers, T shirt companies, greeting card companies, porno video producers, just about anything you can imagine in the visual arts I have done. I've been a motion picture special effects artist and storyboard artist. I've blown up cars and shot people on camera.
The point is, in commercial art, nobody cares HOW you get the finished product. The only thing that matters IS the finished product. Does it look good? Yes? Job done, NEXT. In order to make Mickey Mouse dance and whistle on the movie screen, Walt had to draw 24 individual Mickeys..24 drawings..for every SECOND of movie. Hand drawn. How? Almost every table in the art studio is a tracing table. It's not 24 new original drawings in most scenes, it's traces and re traces of the key drawing. There's a LOT of tracing in fact in every piece of art you probably like and don't even realize it.
If there is a redundancy to the look of my girls...I'm guilty. Because it's true. I am only interested in a couple of distinct types, because deep in my heart I am a serial psycho kidnapper of pretty young girls, and all serial psycho kidnappers have that trait..we're SERIAL..we keep kidnapping the same type of girls over and over. I know I know, you probably don't like that..or you don't like young blondes. I'm sorry. I can't help myself.
I know I should try and follow the trend around here in DoFantasy World and give the girls Names and Lives and Backgrounds so the FanBoys can sit around going all giddy over what's gonna happen to little Susie Creamcheese next..I'm so deficient in this area I know. I'll have to think on how to improve this part of my serial behavior, because personally I'm not interested in her job or her car or her school..I'm interested in tying her up and gagging her and sliding those panties down off her round ass so we can enjoy her getting boned senseless by some big guy with a fat cock. I guess some people just need more these days..
In 14 years I haven't had this conversation yet...thank you for this opprtunity. In certain pages and panels, tracing will happen if I already have a girl in the pose I need, period. Since the two comics have over 10 years between them, it didn't seem like a big deal at the time, and in fact if I had a hundred messages like yours I'd be very upset. But since this is the only one in 14 years, I don't think we can expect a trend just yet.
Now can you please go write to Sorayama and bitch at him too?
If you want me to respond to specific drawings, you'll have to post images...the Hustler Taboo comics come out usually 3 to 4 months AFTER the same pages post on Roberts-Comics..the website is where the work appears first, usually right after it's completed. It appears in Taboo months later, so I have no idea what page you're talking about. Please post examples.
As for using line drawings I have on file for other comics, yes I do. There's a filing cabinet sitting here with every girl I've ever drawn going back into the 1980's, thousands of them. If I'm constructing a page and there's a girl in a pose I know I have on file that fits what I need, it's simply silly to sit and sketch out a whole new model in that same position. In the "Indefinite Detention" comic, I have actually drawn more new figure models and line drawings than any other comic other than "DragonSabre".."Indefinite Detention" has more new original drawings that any other, so I find it interesting you pick THIS one to criticize. The original art file on that comic just passed the 300 image mark yesterday, although that was a helicopter.. Maybe you work for the people I am criticizing in this comic? You seem unusually annoyed over such a small thing.
As for the price on the Roberts-Comics website, I have no control of it. Because of Government threats to the Banks, I cannot get my own billing for my own website..I am a "terrorist". So in order to even HAVE a pay website, I must partner with someone who HAS a billing system. The billing system belongs to DoFantasy and DoBill, not me. I do not set the prices on ANY product on DoFantasy, it is their company. Not mine. My next website is going to be $9.95, but I need a billing company first!
Would you be as angry at Hajime Sorayama if you found out every one of his amazing illustrations of nude girls or space girls or chrome robot girls was traced from a porno magazine centerfold girl? Because they are. Some of his signed prints are going for $5000 now.
Would you be mad if I told you all of those great sexy Luis Royo girls on all those Heavy Metal covers were traced? Of course they are. So are Boris Vallejo's oil paintings, though he does photograph his models himself.
See, my origins come from the world of Commercial Art..professional commercial art. Advertising, magazines, printed books..I've worked for Disney and Universal, for custom car designers, T shirt companies, greeting card companies, porno video producers, just about anything you can imagine in the visual arts I have done. I've been a motion picture special effects artist and storyboard artist. I've blown up cars and shot people on camera.
The point is, in commercial art, nobody cares HOW you get the finished product. The only thing that matters IS the finished product. Does it look good? Yes? Job done, NEXT. In order to make Mickey Mouse dance and whistle on the movie screen, Walt had to draw 24 individual Mickeys..24 drawings..for every SECOND of movie. Hand drawn. How? Almost every table in the art studio is a tracing table. It's not 24 new original drawings in most scenes, it's traces and re traces of the key drawing. There's a LOT of tracing in fact in every piece of art you probably like and don't even realize it.
If there is a redundancy to the look of my girls...I'm guilty. Because it's true. I am only interested in a couple of distinct types, because deep in my heart I am a serial psycho kidnapper of pretty young girls, and all serial psycho kidnappers have that trait..we're SERIAL..we keep kidnapping the same type of girls over and over. I know I know, you probably don't like that..or you don't like young blondes. I'm sorry. I can't help myself.
I know I should try and follow the trend around here in DoFantasy World and give the girls Names and Lives and Backgrounds so the FanBoys can sit around going all giddy over what's gonna happen to little Susie Creamcheese next..I'm so deficient in this area I know. I'll have to think on how to improve this part of my serial behavior, because personally I'm not interested in her job or her car or her school..I'm interested in tying her up and gagging her and sliding those panties down off her round ass so we can enjoy her getting boned senseless by some big guy with a fat cock. I guess some people just need more these days..
In 14 years I haven't had this conversation yet...thank you for this opprtunity. In certain pages and panels, tracing will happen if I already have a girl in the pose I need, period. Since the two comics have over 10 years between them, it didn't seem like a big deal at the time, and in fact if I had a hundred messages like yours I'd be very upset. But since this is the only one in 14 years, I don't think we can expect a trend just yet.
Now can you please go write to Sorayama and bitch at him too?
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Thon
- Member
- Posts: 253
Re: Roberts: Tracing
Wow 
Very informative
Now I'm not a big Robert's customer, partly because, well I guess I'm one of those Fanboys liking a bit more character development, and partly because I can't buy everything. When it comes to prioritize my hard earned coins, I find other art more appealing (I also prefer brunettes before blondes, so my taste are not a quality check, we all like different things).
But.
In this I'm with Robert's. Who cares how the art is made? If you like the end product, buy it. If not, don't. Even if all images was traced, the artist still had to combine them with each other, choose a setting, write a plot, etc, to create a comic. Who knows, it might have been a pic of the girl of the month in a certain pose the got the artist's mind racing in the first place, and thus is the reason behind the comic even being made. Why shouldn't the artist be allowed to use such an image as a base for the comic?
Very informative
Now I'm not a big Robert's customer, partly because, well I guess I'm one of those Fanboys liking a bit more character development, and partly because I can't buy everything. When it comes to prioritize my hard earned coins, I find other art more appealing (I also prefer brunettes before blondes, so my taste are not a quality check, we all like different things).
But.
In this I'm with Robert's. Who cares how the art is made? If you like the end product, buy it. If not, don't. Even if all images was traced, the artist still had to combine them with each other, choose a setting, write a plot, etc, to create a comic. Who knows, it might have been a pic of the girl of the month in a certain pose the got the artist's mind racing in the first place, and thus is the reason behind the comic even being made. Why shouldn't the artist be allowed to use such an image as a base for the comic?
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ROBERTS
- Member
- Posts: 730
Re: Roberts: Tracing
Thank you.
When and if I do trace a pose for a drawing or comics panel, it will be from my own original drawings. Not from a magazine. If I trace a photo at all for a more photo realistic style, it is my own photo or a photo by a photographer I work with.
Not a lot of other commercial illustrators can say that.
In fact, I could scan my massive sketch and line drawing files and assemble them into a clip art sales site (this is a huge business online BTW, artists selling sketches and line art to other artists for their commercial work) and at a couple bucks per downloaded pic, blow what I make off comics completely out of the water per month. I've already seen plenty of art drawn by other artists using my drawings.
I'm really not sure where this idea actually came from, that every drawing HAS to be this individual totally original one of a kind piece. Can you show me where this rule is written? I must have missed it somewhere between Daffy Duck and Ariel the Mermaid..
When and if I do trace a pose for a drawing or comics panel, it will be from my own original drawings. Not from a magazine. If I trace a photo at all for a more photo realistic style, it is my own photo or a photo by a photographer I work with.
Not a lot of other commercial illustrators can say that.
In fact, I could scan my massive sketch and line drawing files and assemble them into a clip art sales site (this is a huge business online BTW, artists selling sketches and line art to other artists for their commercial work) and at a couple bucks per downloaded pic, blow what I make off comics completely out of the water per month. I've already seen plenty of art drawn by other artists using my drawings.
I'm really not sure where this idea actually came from, that every drawing HAS to be this individual totally original one of a kind piece. Can you show me where this rule is written? I must have missed it somewhere between Daffy Duck and Ariel the Mermaid..
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pblueplanet
- Member
- Posts: 4
Re: Roberts: Tracing
What? I can't even look at the art until I buy it.Who cares how the art is made? If you like the end product, buy it. If not, don't.
I would imagine very few people buy Roberts' works for the plot, as Roberts admitted he mainly focuses on the serial part of bdsm. Which is fine. I feel the same way, and am not very interested in the story. I still buy his works for the "set-up scenario" and the artwork. If the artwork turns out to be the same as his previous works, just with different colored hair, then yea, I do feel like I did waste my money, because who reads Roberts' works for the plot? Honestly.
I never said anything against tracing in itself. Perhaps I should have clarified. I'm not tsk tsking you. I don't care about any moral questions regarding tracing. I don't care, I really don't care at all. But I still paid for the same artwork [well, i guess there was a different background], and seeing that was like, "The shading here isn't even as detailed as that Black van 3," half of the pages are the same because of tracing, why did I pay for this?
And yea, saying I'm bitching over a small matter (not allowed to feel I wasted more than $20? for 2 almost completely traced pages)... alright, whatever. And about you starting a clip art sales site, go ahead, it's a free country. I'm not naive to the existence of these sites, like Andrea and Ale. I was also not naive to the tracing of Sorayama. What's the likelihood of the fanbase of Sorayama also having paid for the pin-up girls though? And at least they would be able to know in advance they were getting a trace. Digital art - since you need to pay to even see - does not have that quality. Maybe if you could control your pricing and would offer your works for the price that you feel that they're worth, then I would not have brought this up, since maybe the prices would be less ridiculous, and so traced works would not feel like a rip-off to me. I guess you took it as a personal attack since I started with "I am really disappointed in Gary Roberts at the moment" which was probably not the right way to start. Rather, I'm mostly frustrated with the price I have to pay to see your works vs. the quality of the output I feel I'm getting.
That said, since you know the price that you know your customers feel you have to pay, I asked you to reconsider, since they nor you have a choice about the price, but they have have a choice to pay for your work, and you have a choice to change your work.
Yea, maybe I'm the only one who cares about tracing when paying for the same traces twice (again, without knowing you're going to get a trace the second time). Fine. I get it. I'm projecting onto other people because I think I'm not, but I had to say it out loud because I don't know if I'm the only one who cares about tracing in such a context, and so I post it in the public. I don't have anymore to say, but that is my perspective.
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ROBERTS
- Member
- Posts: 730
Re: Roberts: Tracing
There is no comic where "half the pages are the same". Now you are simply insulting and a liar too.
I'm struggling to see your point..as I'm sure many others are. The general tone you put out is that I am somehow cheating you. Maybe I should feel honored that you are so passionate about my art, that you actually NOTICE such a thing..most guys actually don't notice if I re-used a pose in two comics 10 years apart..but obviously you are paying attention so well that you actually see it. Well then, thank you for being such a dedicated fan. As for pricing issues, this was already explained. I don't set the prices. I personally don't like the prices either. I think they are way too expensive.
So far I haven't seen any examples, no images posted, no page numbers referenced, nothing. Just complaining that you are cheated because I traced my own drawing. I'm not getting the terrible crime here dude..where's the problem?
I'm struggling to see your point..as I'm sure many others are. The general tone you put out is that I am somehow cheating you. Maybe I should feel honored that you are so passionate about my art, that you actually NOTICE such a thing..most guys actually don't notice if I re-used a pose in two comics 10 years apart..but obviously you are paying attention so well that you actually see it. Well then, thank you for being such a dedicated fan. As for pricing issues, this was already explained. I don't set the prices. I personally don't like the prices either. I think they are way too expensive.
So far I haven't seen any examples, no images posted, no page numbers referenced, nothing. Just complaining that you are cheated because I traced my own drawing. I'm not getting the terrible crime here dude..where's the problem?
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pblueplanet
- Member
- Posts: 4
Re: Roberts: Tracing
I was saying that in those 4 pages released in Hustler Taboo, half felt the same. I have said that this was not a personal attack on you. I felt cheated due to the pricing, but not really cheated by you personally. If you still fail to see why this is a request seeing as neither of us can changing the pricing, rather than an attack, then I give up. I feel like I am reading your posts carefully, and reading them literally, whereas you are reading my posts, and then ignoring what I literally said as bitching about you.
As for noticing it, I thought it was pretty blatant. As for posting it, Im not even aware if Im allowed to post anything without infringing on some copyright.
Okay. Last post.
As for noticing it, I thought it was pretty blatant. As for posting it, Im not even aware if Im allowed to post anything without infringing on some copyright.
Okay. Last post.
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Ernest Greene
- Member
- Posts: 22
Re: Roberts: Tracing
It's not for nothing we've been running Roberts' comics in Taboo for years. Our readers love it and let us know how much. As an editor who has to put out a certain number of titles every year no matter what, I will readily confess that we often employ shortcuts of various sorts, including taking straight pick-ups of photographs used for other purposes in earlier issues. Every magazine on earth does this.
But I can affirm that Roberts sends is four new, fresh pages every month. With that level of output there's bound to be some similarity in some of the images but is this not true of movies, TV and every other entertainment product? We build on what we've done and spin it in a new way. Personally I feel he's doing the best work of his career right now and is being too modest about his narrative skills in the bargain. Indefinite Detention has distinctive characters, fun and hot situations and a twist of the artist's wry sense of humor.
It's easy for others to sit on the sidelines and criticize without understanding how any kind of creative work is actually done.
And BTW, the price of an issue of Taboo is $8.99 U.S. That's not even half the twenty dollars allegedly "wasted" on buying the book to see Roberts' new art and all the other things we have to offer. The price is right on the cover, so if you're paying twenty bucks, you need to talk to your news agent.
But I can affirm that Roberts sends is four new, fresh pages every month. With that level of output there's bound to be some similarity in some of the images but is this not true of movies, TV and every other entertainment product? We build on what we've done and spin it in a new way. Personally I feel he's doing the best work of his career right now and is being too modest about his narrative skills in the bargain. Indefinite Detention has distinctive characters, fun and hot situations and a twist of the artist's wry sense of humor.
It's easy for others to sit on the sidelines and criticize without understanding how any kind of creative work is actually done.
And BTW, the price of an issue of Taboo is $8.99 U.S. That's not even half the twenty dollars allegedly "wasted" on buying the book to see Roberts' new art and all the other things we have to offer. The price is right on the cover, so if you're paying twenty bucks, you need to talk to your news agent.
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ROBERTS
- Member
- Posts: 730
Re: Roberts: Tracing
Well, thanks Ernest..you're too kind.
This individual is simply ranting on about a completely unsubstantiated claim..the idea that 2 consecutive pages in a new comic would have so many images traced directly from the same older comic..all from "Black Van 3" by his description..is simply outlandish and at this point purely suspicious..I struggle to understand what motivation anyone has for making such spurrious unsupported accusations, with no evidence presented. Unless of course this person is simply sent here on a specific mission. These things do unfortunately happen.
And mostly, my question is, what's your point dude? That the comics are too expensive? I agree, no arguement there. Take it up with Management, I just draw dirty comics. That I trace old figure models from previous comics sometimes? Yes, I sure f@cking do. Or is it your claim that half an episode of a new comic is exactly the same as an old comic? I call bullshit. Prove it.
And Ernest, you're right...nothing in either catalog is $20...So double bullshit.
This individual is simply ranting on about a completely unsubstantiated claim..the idea that 2 consecutive pages in a new comic would have so many images traced directly from the same older comic..all from "Black Van 3" by his description..is simply outlandish and at this point purely suspicious..I struggle to understand what motivation anyone has for making such spurrious unsupported accusations, with no evidence presented. Unless of course this person is simply sent here on a specific mission. These things do unfortunately happen.
And mostly, my question is, what's your point dude? That the comics are too expensive? I agree, no arguement there. Take it up with Management, I just draw dirty comics. That I trace old figure models from previous comics sometimes? Yes, I sure f@cking do. Or is it your claim that half an episode of a new comic is exactly the same as an old comic? I call bullshit. Prove it.
And Ernest, you're right...nothing in either catalog is $20...So double bullshit.
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pblueplanet
- Member
- Posts: 4
Re: Roberts: Tracing
Okay guys...
which is what appears when you go to hustler taboo's website and click on join now and get access to Hustler Taboo.
As for pictures, which I, again, was not sure if I'm allowed to post, which is why I didn't:
http://i.imgur.com/xm9ehdh.png
http://i.imgur.com/AzSCxgR.png
http://i.imgur.com/QVxUuoJ.png
traced from
http://i.imgur.com/mOfufb9.png
http://i.imgur.com/UPwEQ7w.png
Possibly traced:
http://i.imgur.com/2ncK3OD.png
http://i.imgur.com/1UJHHSp.png
If I was sent on a specific mission, I'd be arguing more. I've dropped it. I presented my argument, I see it has no supporters. I've dropped it. Sheesh.
which is what appears when you go to hustler taboo's website and click on join now and get access to Hustler Taboo.
As for pictures, which I, again, was not sure if I'm allowed to post, which is why I didn't:
http://i.imgur.com/xm9ehdh.png
http://i.imgur.com/AzSCxgR.png
http://i.imgur.com/QVxUuoJ.png
traced from
http://i.imgur.com/mOfufb9.png
http://i.imgur.com/UPwEQ7w.png
Possibly traced:
http://i.imgur.com/2ncK3OD.png
http://i.imgur.com/1UJHHSp.png
If I was sent on a specific mission, I'd be arguing more. I've dropped it. I presented my argument, I see it has no supporters. I've dropped it. Sheesh.